[bonzdee]

Originally Posted by sarahk

Assuming, of course, that your version of God is anything like the reality. Personally I think that when the lights go out that's it. To each his own.

It will be interesting with Chris Kahui (the accused) finding God (the christian variety) to see if he becomes more honest and upfront with police and a) plead guilty; or b) tell the truth about who really did it.

And yes although to you it may be assuming that God in reality is really forgivable of anyone's sins. But to me through forgiveness from God comes salvation of any bad deed anyone has done. And yet to hold someone back from repenting and asking for forgiveness is something I would not stand in the way of.

To each one his own? yet as you say when the lights go out thats it? what memories of you have you left with family and friends? do you really think when we die there ain't people who still think of us or love us and yet does chris really have to find God to know right from wrong, ain't it built in, in all of us, we know when something we've done is wrong, it really is up to the person to admit that, look I don't want to cause some religious battle between what a person should or shouldn't do, it's God that lays down those boundaries not us and yet he lays them down for the benefit of all mankind and until we see those boundaries from his eyes, you have nothing to be repentant off, so life is good to you. But the day you find his boundaries is the day all your bad deeds from youth onwards are as clear as day in your mind.

I do know this, we all remember every bad deed we have done from our youth up and never the good deeds, WHY? it's because God caused us to remember them all, so as the day of judgment is upon us all those bad deeds are crystal clear and undeniable by us all.

[NNY]

sorry man, but religious mumbo jumbo doesnt apply when we are talking about the laws and crimes of man because we dont all believe in the same god and alot of us (like myself) dont believe in god at all. religious institutions were setup in ancient times because the governments of that era did not have the ability to enforce law this worked well when man was god fearing, but we are not god fearing anymore so "bibical prinpicals" are worthless in our modern society.

I might also point out that christain fundamentalists have in the past been notrious for crimes againist children and women.


However this is just my point of view. knowledge is power so discover the facts and make your own informed opinion heres a few examples

ww.necronomi.com/magic/satanism/ccabuse.txt

ttp://tvnz.co.nz/view/tvone_minisite_story_skin/1031908]Archive: Crimes (Abolition of Force as a Justification for Child Discipline) Amendment Bill | TAGATA PASIFIKA | TV ONE | tvnz.co.nz[/url]

I remember a few New Zealand examples but i cant find referance for them so i wont cite them

[bonzdee]

Originally Posted by NNY

sorry man, but religious mumbo jumbo doesnt apply when we are talking about the laws and crimes of man because we dont all believe in the same god and alot of us (like myself) dont believe in god at all. religious institutions were setup in ancient times because the governments of that era did not have the ability to enforce law this worked well when man was god fearing, but we are not god fearing anymore so "bibical prinpicals" are worthless in our modern society.

I might also point out that christain fundamentalists have in the past been notrious for crimes againist children and women.


However this is just my point of view. knowledge is power so discover the facts and make your own informed opinion heres a few examples

www.necronomi.com/magic/satanism/ccabuse.txt

ttp://tvnz.co.nz/view/tvone_minisite_story_skin/1031908]Archive: Crimes (Abolition of Force as a Justification for Child Discipline) Amendment Bill | TAGATA PASIFIKA | TV ONE | tvnz.co.nz[/url]

I remember a few New Zealand examples but i cant find referance for them so i wont cite them

Yup great link so what is the solution? is it the man, or is it the teachings of the bible causing these certain men to be like that, you seem to have condemned all Christian groups as being like that, it's a fact a lot of crimes have been done in the name of God and by religious groups for thousands of years , but was it through the teachings in the bible these men committed these crimes against children or society? Did God approve of this disgusting things happening from so called christian groups in todays society, do you really understand the statement or even know of the statement made by christ when he indicated that not all churches will give good fruit.

He indicated that there will be some churches among you who will not produce good fruit from their churches, the example is taken from a fruit tree, we all know that a good tree gives of good fruit, and so it flourishes and nourishes everyone within that congregation, meaning the teaching and upholding of bible principles is of importance to every member of it. Hence the the church being the tree and the fruit being it's members, so that congregation is giving of good fruit. A good church cannot give of bad fruit.

But now you labeled all christian groups as being of the nature categorized under a bad tree letting of bad fruit, I do believe you were talking about a bad tree letting of bad fruit as indicated by the christ, now you and I know that some of the most horrific crimes caused in the name of Christianity for over thousands of years and are not new, well I assume you know, look at the bishops that supported hitler in his world domination escapade, what fruit tree do you think that bishop comes from, look at priest that bless troops before they go to war and ask favor from God to protect them in killing another human being, does that priest really think God is partial what tree is that priest from, look at all the catholic priest that molested boys in the orphanages, even look at groups that you think are not part of Christianity but will be surprised to see they use the bible as well like the muslims and al queda warring against america all in the name of allah, man I tell you, there is a lot of crime happening on the basis of religion, that we haven't even scratched the surface on, and yet going back the the tree example, they all come from the unfruitful tree, churches and religious groups who teach their congregation nothing and produce worthless fruit, the members them selves are still of the world. Hence the saying by the christ "a bad tree will not give of good fruit" and very true, is it because of the bible and it's teachings? NO!! it what those members are being taught my their churches, nothing of worth at all, because the only use certain passages in the bible which they think is enough to be saved, and forget about the bible in it's entirety and teach all whats in their.

And yes as christ indicated all those worthless trees producing worthless fruit is to be cut down and thrown in the fire, and thats even so called christian groups as well as other religious groups with no basis of righteous teachings
at all.

And I respect your point of view with not believing in God and I don't blame you with all the chaos that has be done in Gods name, kinda makes you wonder if there is a God and why does he let all this happen. But in my closing comment I must say, that he did give each and every one of us a will of our own, you see some people love committing acts of violence and crime and sexual crime, they thrive on it, get a kick out of it, some people can't sleep at night without by first causing some one tribulation or grief and then their sleep is peaceful. Truly I say to you, not every man or woman in our earth is of the seed of the father in the heavens and of righteousness, but are of the seed of the father of the lie Satan. Yes if there is 2 sorts of angels good angels and bad angels, then their is 2 sorts of mankind.

[NNY]

I dont know what this fruit tree business is all about but i wasnt attacking the right to believe in (a) god or gods. I was attacking the institution fundamentalist extremists exist in the church we have all regonised it but instead of doing something about it we just accept it, i should also add we only accept in within our own religion musilims tolerate the atrocities commited by extremists because they are fighting in the name of god (actually they're not but i will get to that later). But western society doesnt. Church goers downplay and ignore crimes commited by the members of their institution because they are preachers and i guess that supposed to be sacred or something.

So fighting in the name of god, thats really a style of propaganda, lets use a muslim example instead of a christian one. Al Queda (a group that does not actually exist, only in the mass media, the americans came up with that one) are musilim extremists that follow the philosophy of a Harvard educated muslim name siad kuta (i probally spelt that name completely wrong). Anywho kuta saw the corruption in materialism/consumerism and decided that its practice was anti muslim. In later years extremists decided two things to be anti-muslim is the equavilant of blasphemy and many muslims believe that blasphemers must be killed (this is called a fatwah). On the hand i actually know many muslims who function perfectly fine in a captialist society (although they may not agree with the system they arent about to go blowing things up).

the point of all is that the laws of man are black and white (most of the time) government enforces law and not morality (unless they're insane republicans). Religious institutions enforce morality which is not black and white. the bible (for example) has been not only translated from latin and is not written in plain english (basic) and therefore is open for interpretation by the reader.

it is againist the law to steal
but is it immoral to steal from say a corporation that sell products made in sweatshops?

it is illegal to kill someone
but is it it immoral to kill a repeat rapist/murderer?

it is illegal to murder babies
but is it immoral to murder babies depending on the situation? (i think it is but that is my morality and its not my place to enforce my morals on someone else nor is it the churches or the governments). We get to decide our own morals because we are free ...kind of.

Someone mentioned earlier in this thread "that they are using their culture to protect themselves from the law." religion is part of culture, it's just another way to hide from the laws of man.

I'm sure i missed a bunch of stuff out, but thats pretty much why i believe the rule of god should not apply.

Lastly I dont know all the facts of this case in auckland but i can guarentee that the information the media has given is not correct. Personally i wouldnt based any of my opinions based on information given to me by the media. As for solutions I am a 2nd media student taking alot political science papers on the side, maybe one day when i am proper educate i'll come up with one.

Hey its a nice experience to have a debate on a such sensitive topic and not have it end in a flaming session.

[NNY]

I dont know what this fruit tree business is all about but i wasnt attacking the right to believe in (a) god or gods. I was attacking the institution fundamentalist extremists exist in the church we have all regonised it but instead of doing something about it we just accept it, i should also add we only accept in within our own religion musilims tolerate the atrocities commited by extremists because they are fighting in the name of god (actually they're not but i will get to that later). But western society doesnt. Church goers downplay and ignore crimes commited by the members of their institution because they are preachers and i guess that supposed to be sacred or something.

So fighting in the name of god, thats really a style of propaganda, lets use a muslim example instead of a christian one. Al Queda (a group that does not actually exist, only in the mass media, the americans came up with that one) are musilim extremists that follow the philosophy of a Harvard educated muslim name siad kuta (i probally spelt that name completely wrong). Anywho kuta saw the corruption in materialism/consumerism and decided that its practice was anti muslim. In later years extremists decided two things to be anti-muslim is the equavilant of blasphemy and many muslims believe that blasphemers must be killed (this is called a fatwah). On the hand i actually know many muslims who function perfectly fine in a captialist society (although they may not agree with the system they arent about to go blowing things up).

the point of all is that the laws of man are black and white (most of the time) government enforces law and not morality (unless they're insane republicans). Religious institutions enforce morality which is not black and white. the bible (for example) has been not only translated from latin and is not written in plain english (basic) and therefore is open for interpretation by the reader.

it is againist the law to steal
but is it immoral to steal from say a corporation that sell products made in sweatshops?

it is illegal to kill someone
but is it it immoral to kill a repeat rapist/murderer?

it is illegal to murder babies
but is it immoral to murder babies depending on the situation? (i think it is but that is my morality and its not my place to enforce my morals on someone else nor is it the churches or the governments). We get to decide our own morals because we are free ...kind of.

Someone mentioned earlier in this thread "that they are using their culture to protect themselves from the law." religion is part of culture, it's just another way to hide from the laws of man.

I'm sure i missed a bunch of stuff out, but thats pretty much why i believe the rule of god should not apply.

Lastly I dont know all the facts of this case in auckland but i can guarentee that the information the media has given is not correct. Personally i wouldnt based any of my opinions based on information given to me by the media. As for solutions I am a 2nd media student taking alot political science papers on the side, maybe one day when i am proper educate i'll come up with one.

Hey its a nice experience to have a debate on a such sensitive topic and not have it end in a flaming session.

[giantfrommars]

I agree with NNY.

The world is not devided to good and evil, or lets say black and white, it is more colourful. There are also some green, yellow, red, blue, brown and any other colour we can imagine.

On the other hand it's very easy to say what is in general right and what is wrong thing to do. But to judge what somebody did it's very hard, for me impossible. I don't know what happens in someone life, what is his/her situation, ... there is millions of factors that count but we can't considere them all.
In the other hand i also don't think god will judge. I don't believe in god and i am not a part of any religion. In my opinion society have to decide what they can tollerate and what not. I don't mean by that the goverment, media and the laws. Everybody have their own criterions.
I also agree with NNY about the media. There are many interests behind every front page news and it's really hard to see them all.

So my conclusion is that we have to make some rules, and what to do in general if someone breaks it. I would count that god will judge someday ...
I really don't know anything about this case of two dead babies so i won't make any judgements. I just hope that that kind of thing will not happen again (probably they will), i just don't know what to say.

[bonzdee]

Yes I agree that the media mask the truths of issues that concern all of us, weather we think it doesn't or not. But my real concern is the accountability of the actions of these people.

We all know right from wrong, we have it built in us all, but to ignore that voice inside us which keeps us on the straight and narrow is when men go beyond and commit atrocities which hits each and everyone of us to our core and then we start to wonder WHY and HOW this could of happened. We know the law and expect to be judged by the law when we break a law and yet the very laws we are governed by where actually laws laid down by God thousands of years ago and man still implements them within our law and enforcement. It does say a lot about the God we are dealing with for even men that are not religious see the benefits of such laws within society as the laws coming from a God who knew we would go beyond the laws and commit these crimes, hence him laying them down for a guideline for us all.

I know that our society and world are filled with all kinds of people and beliefs and to keep anyone under law is virtually impossible if the person is not willing to be governed by a law. In that case he or she is free to do what they want, but the accountability will one day win over.

Thanks for your constructive comments NNY this discussion has taught me a lot about being sympathetic to comments. I could of gone on and on, but at times I get writers block and to trying and get out the information I want, seems to take me of the real topic at hand and my post will end up being an essay....lol

Good luck in your study in politics.

[NNY]

"and yet the very laws we are governed by where actually laws laid down by God thousands of years ago and man still implements them within our law and enforcement." actually they were written by man in the name of god. The bible was written by man. there are no writings in it by jesus or god nor was their any collaboration between the people who wrote these scriptures, all religious texts are written by man and and there preception of events. none of the worlds religious institutions even dispute the fact. Religion is not based on fact its based on faith. Theres nothing wrong with that as long as we all understand that faith is personal and fact is universal.

That is why religion cannot be accounted for when we write law. there was no audience to the handing down of the 10 commandments and no proof what so ever other than the claims of one man. When you decide your stance on a topic you have to filter out what is fact and what is opinion (perception).


i also disagree that we know the fundamentals between right and wrong we have to be taught them they are not instinctive (eg; children who are abused their entire childhood often repeat the abusive behaviour they were taught by their abuser, in their adult lives). For years white people believed that racism was perfectly fine, women continue to struggle for equal rights nations, hatians believe that sex with a child will cure them of aids, the Aztecs sacrificed many many people to their gods they even hunted other tribes just for sport. right and wrong are not instinctive at all, the society we are conditioned to defines our perception of whats is right and wrong.

[bonzdee]

Originally Posted by NNY

[i]i also disagree that we know the fundamentals between right and wrong we have to be taught them they are not instinctive (eg; children who are abused their entire childhood often repeat the abusive behaviour they were taught by their abuser, in their adult lives). For years white people believed that racism was perfectly fine, women continue to struggle for equal rights nations, hatians believe that sex with a child will cure them of aids, the Aztecs sacrificed many many people to their gods they even hunted other tribes just for sport. right and wrong are not instinctive at all, the society we are conditioned to defines our perception of whats is right and wrong.

I believe thats called ignorance not knowing between right and wrong. It maybe a common fact that abused people, repeat the abuse to others but is not a proven fact, and what you describe above on what people do to one another is plain and simple, they chose to do that, it is very distinctive, have you ever seen two toddlers when they fight over a toy and one wins over the other and the one who loses the toy cries? ain't that showing that we already know injustice, now when the other toddler sees the other one cry and gives the toy back, does that not show compassion? when the other who was crying receives that toy back, that child becomes happy again, the other puts his arm over the one that was crying in a gesture, as if saying forgive me. Now that is not learnt that is built in.

I really don't know what issue your trying to put forth here, as from your comments above I boil them all down to ignorance not God, although done in the name of God, but their are many gods and Aztecs had their own gods, just like Maoris had their own gods and just like Egyptians had their own gods and just like Israel with their own one God not gods, and yet from out of all the gods that have been through out entire history it is the God of Israel with the most logical laws for mankind. Yet one law or one commandment could of solved all that you mentioned above about killing, laid out in plain and simple terms given by God to moses on mount senai all those centuries ago a God that did not want us to kill each other and that was quoted by God himself "Donot Commit Murder" and yet thats just one of many loving laws he laid down for our benefit, a God who tells us to keep loving our parents, a God who encourages employers not to cheat their employees out of their wages, give their workers their worth, a God who laid down that if a thief was caught not to put him to death but to make him work and pay back his debt to the person and give his hands something to do, and after the debt was paid back to start paying him a wage, over 600 laws where given by God some of them very strict which did involve being put to death if it was broken.

For me the choice is clear of a God in which I would follow. It is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who's name later was changed to Israel, that God being Jehovah. I love the laws he laid down which is now intertwined into 2 laws given to us by his son jesus christ the 1st being: "You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart, soul and mind" the 2nd being: "And you must love your neighbor as yourself" it's really plain and simple, if you love your neighbor you would not kill them, steal from them, covet his wife or belongings, be jealous over them or what they have. Laws I govern my life by daily, I do not walk around in society thinking ill things of anyone, why because of one simple fact "God Hates That" so the question is, what kinda God would you choose to follow if you had a choice.

I could go on and on, but time is of the essence for me at the moment, look forward to your comments.

[NNY]

theres a crazy mexican ex junkie with a riduclously large following in California who cliams to be the rencarnation of christ.

I dont think i'm getting through to you at this point.

GOD did not give moses ten commandments he simply told a bunch of people that without any proof. they chose to believe him that is FAITH not FACT. It cannot be proven it is just written you cant prove it because you weren't there.

on the instruction manual of my new oven it tells me that i'll get a burn hand if i touch the element while its turned on, this is FACT i can prove it by putting my hand on the element while its turned on and get burnt. Infact you can prove this with your oven and your hand. we have now established that FACTS can be proven using LOGIC.

you keep saying "god said this god said that" god didnt say anything, moses said that god said. keeping this in mind re read my last post.This is the simplest way i can think to put my point across If you cant grasp this concept i'm afraid this conversation is just going to start going around in circles.

[bonzdee]

Originally Posted by NNY

theres a crazy mexican ex junkie with a riduclously large following in California who cliams to be the rencarnation of christ.

I dont think i'm getting through to you at this point.

GOD did not give moses ten commandments he simply told a bunch of people that without any proof. they chose to believe him that is FAITH not FACT. It cannot be proven it is just written you cant prove it because you weren't there.

on the instruction manual of my new oven it tells me that i'll get a burn hand if i touch the element while its turned on, this is FACT i can prove it by putting my hand on the element while its turned on and get burnt. Infact you can prove this with your oven and your hand. we have now established that FACTS can be proven using LOGIC.

you keep saying "god said this god said that" god didnt say anything, moses said that god said. keeping this in mind re read my last post.This is the simplest way i can think to put my point across If you cant grasp this concept i'm afraid this conversation is just going to start going around in circles.

And I don't think the point I'm making is getting through to you and what concept are we trying to grasp? you making me believe there is no God or me making you believe there is?.

And yet if those people following that mexican junkie or what ever he is I don't know read the scripture where jesus said “Then if anyone says to YOU, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. Look! I have forewarned YOU. Therefore, if people say to YOU, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner chambers,’ do not believe it.

Plain and simple ain't it, it seems you like to point out what people are doing because of the bible, but not actually look into it yourself to see that if what they are doing is according to the bible, in other words fighting a war without a sword or no knowledge of the SUBJECT! or WHAT! or WHY! these things occur. Take your pick man there are more stories on the internet about people doing things in the name of God or Religion, thats the circle your stuck in. Forever pointing out what people do in the name of God or Religion but don't want to take that one more step to understand if what they are doing is really in the name of God or Religion and or biblical teachings at all. Now just from that scripture above I will now use the your so called word LOGIC and apply it here and know that in no way in hades is that mexican christ.

But I don't mind it going around in circles cos we never gonna see eye to eye anyway, the most common reason I figure why people don't want to believe there is a God is because of the laws laid down by him contradicts the life style they lead in other words a person does not like being told that the things they are doing is wrong, yet the funny thing is deep down even that person knows it is, without even God telling them that it is, hence the whole reason why this discussion board was posted, we are here because of knowing what chris done was wrong I emphasize "KNOWING" right from wrong m8 I said it b4, we did not need God to tell us what chris did was wrong. It is built in us knowing right from wrong, yet like I said in a previous post as well, people like doing the things they do, they get a kick out of it, satisfying their sexual appetite is more appealing to them than devotion to God and understand this, you say it can't be proven that God gave moses the laws, because of me not being there? and if I was there would I be here today??...lol, I'll be like what 4000 years old...lol. So also you can't prove that God didn't because you weren't there.

Stalemate.

[NNY]

no i'm not debating wether god exists or not. the debate was orignally about wether or not reigious moral should have anything to do with law making. My answer was no because of (previous posts).

You have every right to believe in your god, but you have not right to impose his supposed will on anyone else.

it seems you like to point out what people are doing because of the bible, but not actually look into it yourself to see that if what they are doing is according to the bible

people arent doing anything because to the bible people are doing what their leaders tell them, and their leaders are the ones who decide what god said. Countries with religion as foundation for their governments often go to war (namely america), countries that are at peace have laws that are decided by everyone regardless of race or religion or whatever in the society concerned. lets forget the basic thou shall not crap for a second.

Is homosexuality wrong? is smoking marijuana wrong? is being a transexual wrong? according to the church yes. But seeing as the church does not hold the the same values as the majority no. (yes christainity is a very new religion and its followers are still a minority). Of course it is wrong to kill but we decided that together as a society not because "god said" and if he did exist and did say that then sure we would probally all agree. but once again that is not what i'm arguing

yes you have the right to believe whatever you want but understand, that is your faith to say it is fact would be completely untrue just like when you said "god said". You are right when you implied i can't prove the contrary, but that doesn't make your statement anymore true.

as for not knowing anything about the subject, i was baptised in the st pauls church attended st pauls collegiate, attended chruch twice and week and participated in communion for 16 odd years, i was forced to take to religious studies all through high school and i've read the bible more times than i care to remember. At the age of 16 the laws of man stated that i was now free to decide these things for myself, so instead of blindly following i decided to leave and find out about the world for myself. I think i know plenty about the church and how it works thanks. My christian upbringing is exactly what made me reject it. Also i currently have 4 years of tertiary education (with 2 more to go), to say that i know plenty about the subject (thats not saying that i know everything about the subject i'm always learning more).

I Choose to obstain from any religious belief systems as i my studies revolve heavily around religious and political issue and i would not be able to hold an objective point of view if i signed on to any religious beliefs.

just from that scripture above I will now use the your so called word LOGIC no you wont you cant apply logic to something you cant prove thats just complete ignorance. also you said you were going to apply Logic to
"that scripture", but you dont instead you go off another tangent. I dont think we're at a stalemate at all as that last post barely made sense.

of course this is a forum so you can always post again and reiterate

[bonzdee]

I give up, I got better things to do with my time. End of forum discussion for me in this topic.

[Lina]

Whew!

Just scrolling through these two pages gave me a headache!

Glad you got to voice your own opinions... but I'm outta this one too.

[kall]

My sides hurt from the laughing.